[Speaker 1]
So you have to decide, so what’s my real call in this place? And that’s a discernment to say, you know, is this yours to take on? And what needs are you going to respond to?

How often, how much will you be available? Are you having any time off? When is that?

How do you set those limits? It’s not just about time management, but it’s about a clarity of self-management and clarity of call. You have an important role to play, a call to this place, and you have to let go of the outcome and just be curious and see how it goes.

So if you want to take responsibility for everything, they’ll let you do it as long as you will and get used to it. It can be problematic over time because it’ll wear you out if you always have to be the responsible one and others around you are not sharing the load.

[Speaker 2]
We’re wired for connection, but most of us are faking it to fit in. I’m Tonya Kubo, and this is Find Your Freaks, the podcast that flips the script and spotlights the quirks you thought you had to keep quiet. Subscribe now and head to findyourfreaks.com for show notes and extras, because around here, what makes you weird makes you wonderful. Normal was never the point. We love talking about community around here. We talk about how to build it, we talk about how to grow it, and most importantly, we talk about how to sustain it.

And today, we are talking about something that has to come before any of that, which is whether the people who hold communities together can actually hold themselves together, whether they can stay. And for that important conversation, I have brought on none other than Margaret Markison. Margaret is a clergy coach.

She is an American Baptist minister and an author who has spent more than the last two decades helping pastors and other ministry leaders get lighter, less burdened in their ministry. And she has a book that came out recently called Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead and When to Nap. And I love this title because it is not a collection of productivity tips for the overworked pastor.

It is not about how to do more in less time. She is actually inviting the reader to ask whether ministry has been designed to be sustainable at all and the cost for all of us when clergy and ministry leaders burn out and leave. And Margaret, we kick off every episode with this question, and then we’re going to go from there, which is, Margaret, who are your freaks and what is it that makes you love them so much?

[Speaker 1]
Well, my freaks are pastors, and I am one of them. And I do love pastors. I just love their commitment, the way they show up week after week, year after year, and are willing to do important work to help people find a sense of community, relate to God, grow spiritually and emotionally.

Anyway, I could go on, but I do, I love them.

[Speaker 2]
Well, and I love that you love them. You know, especially how much it means to me that we have a deep connection with the people we serve, regardless of what business we’re in. But I think right now, like, I really want to talk about where we stand right now in 2026, right?

We have seen the pandemic and I know you mentioned the pandemic in your book. We’ve seen the pandemic come and go. We’ve seen how that has changed the trajectory of just the world.

We’re also, you know, you and me, we both live in the U.S. and right now churches, Christianity specifically, is a very hot topic, very popular among some, very unpopular among others. But you’ve been in this for 25 years, right? You have coached clergy through ups, through downs.

From your perspective, what is the average ministry leader or pastor carrying right now?

[Speaker 1]
Well, they’re often carrying a sense of responsibility for, you know, for their church overall, their congregation, its future. You know, some churches are struggling post-pandemic. Some churches are struggling with the political polarization, you know, within or around them.

And churches are struggling financially. So some pastors are struggling financially themselves as they, you know, figure out how to, how do you make a living at this kind of freaky job that they’re doing where, you know, the people they lead are the people who give so that they can keep doing their job and serving the people that they lead. It’s complicated.

[Speaker 2]
Well, it’s complicated and it’s, you know, nobody goes into ministry, I think, for the salary.

[Speaker 1]
No, no, that is pretty much true.

[Speaker 2]
But yeah, I mean, you know, grocery, I always say grocery’s got to get on the table one way or the other.

[Speaker 1]
That is right. That is right. And working for nothing is not what God calls you to be doing, in my opinion, you know, unless you have some other source of income.

And it’s a kind of, it can be a kind of over-responsibility for the congregation to work for really less than you even need to pay your bills. And I don’t think that’s good for anybody.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, so in that vein, I guess I’m curious with all that’s happening in the world right now, there’s the pastors out there, because I think the pastors that you typically work with are probably the ones who are doing that quiet, like people loving work of ministry, right? They believe in the intrinsic value of humans.

They believe that they belong because they’re here. They want them as part of that family of God. And they get lumped in with people who use the same labels, the same vocabulary, but like, don’t necessarily walk about the world with the same belief structure.

How do you think it feels for them to be lumped in with this intersection of both like faith and politics and all that we’ve got going on?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is complicated. And I think it’s hard because people say, you know, well, I’m a Baptist. So people have certain ideas about Baptists, most of which don’t include having women pastors.

Right. Right. And, you know, the Christian nationalism is in vogue in certain parts of the culture.

And people say, okay, well, that’s not me. I’m not that kind of Christian. I’m not that.

Our church is not that kind of church. You know, we want to be more open, maybe more flexible, more diverse in our views and in our, you know, the makeup of our congregation. And it’s disheartening when people have lots of assumptions about what it means to be a Christian.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think disheartening is a good word. I’m curious, what else do you see it taking from our clergy, both emotionally and vocationally? Like, what’s the cost that they’re paying right now?

[Speaker 1]
So part of it is they’re working on like, what’s my responsibility to this congregation? And for what’s going on in the world? What bandwidth do I have to take action for love and for justice?

And do my, you know, week to week work? What are my people feeling called to? And how much of that should I be engaged in myself?

How much do I support them? So that would be one. And I mean, I always talk with people like you need to have a practice for regulating how you take in news nowadays.

Yeah, it’s just a barrage. And you can be anxious and upset all the time. And that actually is not good for you or for your people.

[Speaker 2]
So is there a way that they can hold all that? Because they’re taking in the news, I think it’s excellent that you pointed in that, right? So they’re taking in all this external stuff, right?

But then they’re also taking in whatever their congregation is taking in from all of that stuff.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes, that’s right. And plus, just the usual ministry, things happen, there are key deaths or tragic deaths, or people need ongoing pastoral care with illness or family issues. And you know, all that takes its toll as well.

[Speaker 2]
So is there a way to hold all of that without letting it break you as a pastoral leader?

[Speaker 1]
Well, I would say no, you can’t hold all of that. Okay. Right.

So you have to decide. So what’s my real call in this place? And that’s a discernment.

I know some pastors have spiritual directors that help them prayerfully consider. And I work with pastors that I coach individually and in groups to say, you know, is this yours to take on? And what needs are you going to respond to?

How often? How much will you be available? Are you having any time off?

When is that? How do you set those limits? It’s not just about time management, but it’s about a clarity of self-management and clarity of call, which is just an ongoing discernment.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so self-management and clarity of call. I think those are big. And it makes me wonder, when you think back over your career, is there a particular pastor or clergy member that you have worked with in the past or, you know, maybe even somebody you didn’t work with, but you just saw this all play out?

Like, I’m just curious, is there a story that comes to mind that captures to you what this work is really about?

[Speaker 1]
So I was thinking about a young, youngish pastor who’s been a client and has on his email, like when he’s available, when he responds to email, he has a family. And I just love that he’s got a little quote at the end of his email, but here’s where, when I respond to email. So that’s just a very small little example.

And I know one of my mentors, Larry Matthews, he was a Baptist pastor in Virginia who really made the move from being way over-responsible to setting limits in a way that people in his congregation couldn’t even believe. It was healthier for everybody, but I think some people, it took them a little time to adjust to the new Larry, but he was able to carry on his ministry with much more freedom, actually, less compulsion.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so what I’m hearing is like boundaries, like boundaries are really important in life, but what you’re talking about is, you know, we’ve got this role that I think many, many people take for granted and they don’t realize it, right? It’s not intentional. They don’t mean to, but this assumption is that a pastor as a man slash woman of God is there to serve God.

And therefore they’re to serve me and God is open 24-7, therefore my pastor should be open 24-7. But in order for the pastor to do anything well, like there’s got to be boundaries, they got to eat, they got to sleep. And I know that from looking at your book that, you know, it’s really anchored in Bowen family systems theory.

And I, so I think it’s interesting that you just pointed out an example where somebody was placing some boundaries around work and around family. But your idea is that, you know, the pastor’s job, and you’ve said that, their job is not to carry the whole church, but to have responsibility for themselves within the system of the church or the system, whether it’s little C church or big C church. Where does that land for you personally?

And can you give me a couple of examples of what that looks like in practice?

[Speaker 1]
So I was a pastor myself for about 15 years and I remember, well, this is just a story, this is in my other book, Leaders Who Last. So I was standing in the back of the church on Easter Sunday and somebody leaned over and said to me, you know, I think we’re going to have to do something about that cracked toilet. And I just wanted to turn and say, what, what, what?

But it threw me into a tailspin because I just felt like I was carrying them on my back and they were not getting it. And over time, what I learned was, you know, kind of a way to take that little church off my back and say, you know, they had been there for a long time before I came. They’re still there.

You know, I left 25 years ago and it wasn’t, you know, my church. This is God’s church, right? I have a role to play.

I occupied an important position. I was pastor that Larry Matthews, my mentor, used to talk about the L position for pastors. You’re in that L position, which is critical.

And it’s not all up to you to make sure everything works that the, even that the church survives. You have an important role to play, a call to this place, and you have to let go of the outcome and just be curious and see, kind of see how it goes.

[Speaker 2]
So what makes it hard to let go? I mean, cause that sounds like amazing advice that also isn’t something that you can implement in a split second.

[Speaker 1]
No. And so there’s a couple of things that make it hard to let go of the external and internal. So people have a lot of expectations and projections of their pastor.

And some of that comes from within them. Some of it comes from the way past pastors have functioned. So if you want to take responsibility for everything, they’ll let you do it as long as you will.

And they get used to it. Right. And then most pastors, they don’t become pastors by accident.

This is where I liked the family systems ideas because most of us were born into families that had certain expectations that we wanted to measure up to, and then we want to make a difference in the world. And so we go out and end up in this highly responsible position, not by accident, partly because of family programming. So this is not a bad thing.

It is the way human beings work. And I think that God can work through these family patterns, but when they get compulsive, as I know they did with me and with some of my clients, it can be problematic over time because it’ll wear you out if you always have to be the responsible one and others around you are not sharing the load. So then we blame them, but we play a part in it too.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So if there were a pastor, I don’t think I have any pastors who listened to the show, but they might. Who knows?

I’m hoping somebody listening forwards this to a pastor at the very least. But if they’re listening and they feel like, yeah, that sounds great. There is nothing more, especially, you know, after Easter and all of the other things, big holidays that happen.

There’s nothing I would love more than to step back. But if I do that, everything will fall apart. Margaret, you do not understand the life I live.

What would you say to them?

[Speaker 1]
Well, I would say, Lisa, you don’t have to do it all at once. Maybe you discern here’s one area. Maybe it’s, I don’t know, you know, proofread the bulletin or whatever.

Yeah. Could you practice stepping back a little bit? And people might over time, people can thank you for taking less responsibility.

I took a sabbatical when I was a pastor and they’d never had a pastor take a sabbatical before. And when I came back, it was very hard. Not everybody was in favor of it.

When I came back, one of the key lay leaders came to me and said, thank you. Thank you for taking the sabbatical because we learned what we could do on our own.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
So sometimes when you step back over time, people can see the value, but you have to have a certain internal fortitude. I always say to people, if you decide something is not your responsibility and you begin to step back, if you feel guilty, it doesn’t mean you’re on the wrong track. Oh, what does it mean?

There’s this false guilt that we have when we have this compulsive responsibility. It often means if you’ve made a principled decision, it means you’ve actually made a real choice that’s in your best interest and the work is to tolerate it. To feel a little bit bad, maybe have people criticize you a little bit.

That is part of, if you continue to grow as a pastor emotionally and spiritually, some people aren’t going to like it. They want you to be the good old happy pastor or do all the things pastor, but it keeps others from growing when we do all the things. This is true, by the way, in family life, in other work settings, that it is a contribution to do what you are responsible for and step back from what you’re not responsible for.

[Speaker 2]
Well, and what you’re saying is, I mean, as you’re talking, I’m kind of thinking of my own background in leadership in and outside of churches, but as long as there’s somebody… Well, I have found two things in life. One is if somebody does the thing long enough, the thing becomes associated with that person’s identity, both for themselves and for everybody else.

So people won’t even offer to help anymore because they feel like they are somehow offending that person, and that person’s not necessarily so great at asking for help or accepting help because their identity has gotten tied into being the person who does the thing. But there’s no succession planning there, right? It’s just bad business.

If it was a business, we’d be like, okay, well, that’s a bad idea because if that person gets sick or hospitalized, nobody knows how to do the thing. How does the business stay afloat? But in a church environment, we seem to think that that is somehow superior than having succession planning.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, when you have somebody who’s 85 years old who’s been doing something for 35 years, it’s not going to go on forever. Right, right. But it is hard because that’s part of their identity and they don’t necessarily want to let go.

So this does not just apply to pastors. It applies to volunteer leaders as well.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so do you think what makes it so hard on the ministry side of things is simply because there’s this deep faith component, right? So there’s automatically identity associated with being a pastor and the component of the people they lead are also the people who are responsible for their salaries.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, it’s tricky. It is. And you don’t have to be apologetic that people pay your salaries because they need you to lead them and to do the work.

But yeah, it is tricky because if I do this, they’ll get mad at me and that will be bad.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, and then they won’t give their $20, $200, $2,000, whatever it is.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right. And I’ll be honest, people sometimes get mad and stop giving. However, letting immature people hold the church hostage is not good for anybody.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Okay, so speaking of not good for anybody, let’s talk naps. And the reason I say, speaking of not good for anybody, right, like lack of sleep, sleep deprivation, not good for anybody.

Burning the candle at both ends, not good for anybody. It doesn’t seem to me like adding naps into your subtitle of your book would be accidental or just to fill out space. Tell me about why that was important enough to put on the cover of your book.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I will say when I tested it out, everybody laughs and they still do now when I’ve decided when I say that title, everybody laughs. So that was part of it. It’s an illustration of being able to let go.

When you’re asleep, you got to let go. So it doesn’t have to be naps for sure. It could be playing games or hiking or being in a band or whatever feeds you or helps you, takes you out of yourself.

So you’re not so caught up in all the responsibilities.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Well, and I mean, what I’m hearing is, you know, it’s off the clock.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And not off the clock out of exhaustion, but off the clock intentionally.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that’s right. So if I say when to nap, not only when you’ve been up all night at a hospital visit, that’s not the only time to take a nap. It could be every day or twice a week, but some structured time when you know you can be free of responsibility.

Oh, and that reminds me, notifications. Decide what you’re going to do about notifications.

[Speaker 2]
What do you mean by that?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I mean, like on your phone, social media and email notifications. You don’t want to be getting notified all the time. You can’t take a nap if you’re hearing the Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. If the phone’s going off all the time.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So it’s OK to turn the phone off.

[Speaker 1]
It’s OK. I’m guessing it’s OK to turn the phone off. I’m kind of old, so it might be easier for me.

I don’t know.

[Speaker 2]
No. Well, I tell people all the time, you know, I have girls who are 16 and 11 and I haven’t had the ringer on my phone since the first one was born, because if we were up all night and I finally got her to bed, the last thing I was going to do is let some notification that I didn’t care about wake her up. So, yeah.

And life is life is good because you know what? Whether the phone’s on or off, voicemail still works. The messages will come through when I turn it back on.

Yes. It’s all fine.

[Speaker 1]
It is.

[Speaker 2]
OK, so now I have a hard question. And, you know, and I know a lot of people are used to podcasts. They’re all like, happy, go lucky.

But I think this is an important one to address because we’re recording in 2026. And maybe if we were recording in 2016, I wouldn’t even think of it. But with everything going on right now, I mean, everybody I know right now is physically, emotionally and I would just say intellectually exhausted.

There’s political noise. There’s views of organized religion, organized anything, right? Because everything seems to be somehow connected to politics or religion.

Like it’s hard to escape those conversations. Is church as an entity even worth it anymore for pastors, for congregants, for anybody? What would you say?

[Speaker 1]
I would say yes. I mean, I’ve given my life to the church and I would also say no, sometimes no. Some churches are not healthy places to be a part of, to work in.

And sometimes some denominations, they send pastor after pastor who then gets beat up and burnt out. So those churches, no. Church overall, and like I said, the church to think of Christianity as a wholly owned subsidiary of the United States government, it’s like, no.

[Speaker 2]
I’ve never heard that.

[Speaker 1]
I haven’t even thought it or said it that way. But this is one thing about Baptists historically is Baptists have always believed in the separation of church and state. And some Baptists have been co-opted away from that.

It’s important to say God and religion. I mean, God and the government are not in the same business, whatever the government is. So that rant over.

What I think is really beneficial about church is a place of community at its best, a place where people can find a way to think and to talk and to work about God and to worship God, to deal with the rub that comes in human relationships, to have many, many churches are multi-generational communities, which doesn’t happen as much in other places in our society anymore. I think that’s a wonderful gift for people to be together in that way. We have a long way to go in terms of a multicultural community.

There’s a lot of challenges there still. And I go to church every week and I find it a real blessing and a gift.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So you said it’s worth it to be in healthy churches. And I think you just gave us like some really good markers of what a healthy church is.

What would you say? Let’s say that I am looking for a new church, whether I’m new in town or whatever, what are three things I should be like red flags that are like, yeah, don’t come back. It helps me identify what may be an unhealthy place that maybe I wouldn’t necessarily recognize.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Wow. That’s a really good question.

So sometimes the health and unhealth is a little bit below the surface.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Fair. Right.

[Speaker 2]
Fair.

[Speaker 1]
And we hear sometimes about these secrets about terrible behavior that comes out after many years in a church. But if you go in and nobody talks to you, that’s probably not a great place. You know, it might be, it’s weird.

This is kind of sad and weird to say on some levels, I might be a fine church that it just isn’t very skilled at welcoming people. But if you’re looking for a church, you want a church where somebody talks to you and you want a sense of that, that the people care for each other. And you want, it’s not all about the pastor, but you want a pastoral leader who is able to define him or herself, be really clear about what they think and give room for other people to have their own perspective as well.

Those are a few things that come to mind and maybe a sense of humor, some lightheartedness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I appreciate some humor and some lightheartedness personally. So I would love that.

So let’s talk to the listener right now. So for the listener who, and we’re talking like the pastor here, right? Who is like, never, like you just put words to what I’ve been feeling that I didn’t even have vocabulary to put around.

What would you say is one small but meaningful step they could take this week to start making their ministry feel more sustainable?

[Speaker 1]
I would say number one, schedule your time off and consider that to be an appointment with yourself. Sometimes I say, you don’t have to talk to people as long as they want to talk to you. And you can say, I have an appointment and that can be with yourself.

I would say number two, reach out to the person in your congregation or outside who always makes you feel better. You don’t have to share anything. You just know that you’re going to feel better after you talk with them and connect with someone who is healthy and positive.

And thirdly, breathe, breathe, breathe, get some oxygen. So I’m thinking about those three things that I just said. One is to get clear, get clear about the boundaries around when you’re working and not working.

You know, stay connected, especially to people that are joyful. And thirdly, keep calm-ish in this context. I used to say keep calm, keep calm-ish.

And I think breathing is a way to calm yourself down instantly under almost any circumstances, including the headline you just saw or the budget meeting.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, such good advice, such good advice. So now let’s turn it to the person listening, the pastor specifically, who’s actually on the fence. Who’s like, maybe they’ve been thinking about leaving.

Maybe they’ve been wondering what else is out there. They’re kind of on the edge. What would you say to them?

[Speaker 1]
I would say a couple of things. One is to discern, you know, is this place where you’re serving, is it healthy enough for you to stay? Maybe you could stay in ministry and serve in another place.

So all churches have issues, but some have more issues than others. And is there enough raw material to carry on your ministry there? Secondly, to find someone outside the congregation and not a family member to help you think things through.

I think it’s also, it’s part of the work that I do, but also I’ve had wonderful colleagues over the years. Not the people that just bemoan it with you, but who can really give you good feedback and help you discern. And thirdly, is to continue your or return to your prayer life.

And it may be that God is calling you out of ministry. I don’t believe it’s, I mean, I left pastoral, I’m still in ministry, but I left pastoral ministry. And that God calls every Christian, but it may be that there is another path for you and not to feel guilty about the possibility of pursuing something different.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, great advice. Great advice. So what I would say to anybody listening, if you want to know more about what Margaret’s talking about, whether you want to talk to her specifically or you want to check out one of the many books she’s read, especially Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead, and When to Nap, all of that information is going to be in the show notes.

If you’re watching us on YouTube, it’s going to be right below this video. Trust me, I will make sure that you can connect with Margaret if that is something that you are looking to do. But Margaret, before we let you go, we have a quick round.

Now, this is where we have fun on the show. We have a quick round called Freak Flags Fly, because I think it’s hilarious to watch myself say a tongue twister every time that we have the show. It’s going to be five fast questions, no wrong answers, just whatever comes to mind.

Are you ready?

[Speaker 1]
I think so.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, complete this sentence. You’re my kind of freak if…

[Speaker 1]
You are a pastor who wants to continue to learn and grow and develop your leadership over time.

[Speaker 2]
Good. Okay, so what is something you love that the people around you just don’t get?

[Speaker 1]
Romance novels.

[Speaker 2]
I’m not going to lie, I have that guilty pleasure too, and nobody around me gets it. So I’m there with you. When this is off, we’ll have that conversation.

What community, though, would you infiltrate just to understand it better?

[Speaker 1]
Wow. Oh, a professional bakery.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, you would like want to be in a professional bakery community? Be fun. Okay.

What tool, ritual, or practice helps you stay connected to your people?

[Speaker 1]
Well, going to church, for sure, because it keeps me honest, so I know what they’re up against.

[Speaker 2]
Good one. And who is someone doing freakishly good work who deserves a bigger stage? Any industry.

It could be ministry, Adam industry, whatever it is.

[Speaker 1]
So there’s a singer, Morgan James, who’s just absolutely fabulous. And I found her watching the Charismatic Voice, who was a classical musician who reacts to mostly popular music. And my husband and I both just love Morgan James.

And I was just thinking it just yesterday, she should be huge.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, Morgan James, I’ve never heard of her. So you have at least caused one person to check her out, because I’ll be checking her out as soon as we’re done. Okay, Margaret, thank you so much.

Thank you for your time today. But more importantly, thank you for the perspective you’ve given all of us on the work of the pastor, both internally and externally, and the appreciation for all that they’re shouldering right now. And for our listeners, if you are a pastor, or know a pastor who has been running on empty, carrying what isn’t yours, wondering if anyone sees how hard this is, I think the important message to walk away with today is what Margaret said.

You are responsible for yourself and for your role within the system of the church, not the whole church. And that’s not a failure on your part. That’s not because you’re not big enough, you’re not good enough.

It’s just the only way that any of this stays still standing. We’ll see you next time. Thank you again, Margaret.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
That’s it for this episode of Find Your Freaks. To help more weirdos find their way here, subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And if you’re craving connection, join the freak show at findyourfreaks.com.

What makes you weird, makes you wonderful. Normal was never the point.