I realized that my speed of volunteering for things that I could do frequently prevented the person who was actually best suited for doing the thing from stepping up. Because if Tanya’s going to do everything, then why should I even bother? On one hand, we teach helplessness. You know, our willingness to carry everything for everybody else teaches them that they don’t have to carry anything.

But I think more important and even more damaging than that is sending the message that we don’t believe anybody is as capable as us. Our communities, whether they’re virtual or they’re in person, you know, they don’t become healthier by asking one person to carry the sacrifice for everybody. They become healthier when we start sharing responsibility.

Boundaries do not weaken communities. They strengthen them. We’re wired for connection, but most of us are faking it to fit in.

I’m Tanya Kubo, and this is Find Your Freaks, the podcast that flips the script and spotlights the quirks you thought you had to keep quiet. Subscribe now and head to findyourfreaks.com for show notes and extras. Because around here, what makes you weird makes you wonderful.

Normal was never the point. One of the things I love most about hosting Find Your Freaks is that every interview changes how I see the world just a little bit. My conversation with Margaret Markison in the last episode didn’t just make me think differently about pastors or about ministry.

It made me think differently about everyone whose job it is to hold other people together. We spend a lot of time here talking about how to build healthy communities. It’s my passion.

It is what I believe that I am put on this earth to do. But we don’t spend nearly enough time talking about what it costs the people who keep those communities healthy. We talked a little bit about it in our episode with Rachel Alexandria, but even then, not to the extent that I want to talk about it today.

So if you didn’t listen to the last episode, let me just give you a little bit of context on Margaret. So Margaret is a clergy coach. For more than 25 years, she’s worked with pastors who desperately want to stay in ministry, but don’t know if they can without losing themselves or maybe even their families in the process.

Now, she recently published a book called Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead and When to Nap, which I just love that title because who doesn’t need a really good nap? But it’s not a book about naps, right? It’s a book about sustainability. And I would go so far as to say it’s a book about sustainability in a high burnout field. And the more I think about our conversation, the more I realize that there’s a lot of high burnout fields out there.

Ministry has not cornered the market on burnout. It may have cornered the market enough to where it can be Margaret’s career, but there are a whole host of high burnout fields out there. I think of public service.

I think of healthcare, right? I think of health and human services, nonprofits, education, right? There are a lot of high burnout fields out there. And, you know, so when Margaret talks about sustainability, not just talking about ministry, right? She is describing what can happen anytime we expect one person to become everyone’s emotional safety net, right? When we expect one person to provide the executive functioning for everyone around them, Margaret’s book applies. When we expect one person to walk on eggshells to manage everybody’s emotions around them, Margaret’s book on sustainable ministry also comes into play.

So one of the things that I think is important to address here, because I think that it’s much more broadly applicable than just ministry workers, is if you look at it closely, right? The community that Margaret serves is a community that can actually talk about their problems out loud, right? It’s not that pastors are private people. I mean, I think many are, but they lead communities where admitting struggle publicly has consequences. It can shake their congregation’s confidence in their leadership.

It can shake their congregation’s confidence in their faith. It can put their jobs in jeopardy, right? Especially if they answer to a board. It can affect the financial sustainability of a church because who wants to tithe to an organization led by somebody who admits that they’re having a hard time as a leader? Whether the hard time is operational or spiritual, it can really shake the core of people’s faith in their leader as somebody appointed by God or by a commission to be their leader.

Some cases, you know, pastors just don’t want to burden the people they’re trying to care for, right? It’s hard to minister to people who feel like they have to minister to you. And sometimes they just don’t feel like there’s a safe place to be honest, right? Like gossip may be frowned upon, but if you’ve grown up in a church environment, I guarantee you have experienced gossip. You know that there are very few secrets.

There’s always somebody, the information goes in their ear and it comes out their mouth. And so, you know, someone like Margaret has had to become an incredibly careful listener over time. She has to hear the private stories well enough that she can write about them publicly without exposing anybody individually.

A lot of the work she does happens privately, either one-on-one or in small groups. You know, she leads workshops, she teaches classes at seminary level, all in areas where it is safe to assume that either nobody’s uttering a word of it elsewhere, maybe nobody knows everybody’s exact background, or like in the case where she’s, you know, speaking in seminary environments, she can speak to it from a perspective of, I know nobody in this room is experiencing this, we’re going to talk about it so that when you do experience it, or if you do experience it, you’ll know what to do then. If you think about it, that’s a pretty remarkable skill, isn’t it? And back to what I was saying before, right? She’s not the only one who has to hone that skill.

Therapists have to hone that skill, physicians have to hone that skill, teachers have to, military leaders, right, non-profit executives, there are a lot of people who have to hone that skill of being able to address known problems in a way that it doesn’t make anybody terrified that whatever the structure is in place, it’ll come crashing down because it’s unstable. And because it kind of applies to all these other fields, like I said, therapists, physicians, teachers, military leaders, non-profit executives, whatever, if you are listening and you support any of those professions, right, you have to then understand that the problems they face will rarely ever be discussed out loud, right? Like these are not going to be individuals who ask the question on your social media profile, right? When you say, what is your biggest struggle with XYZ? They’re not going to come and say, well, actually my biggest struggle is this, because the last thing they need are their, you know, social media friends or colleagues to be able to see them say that and then call into question how they’re thinking, how they’re feeling, you know. Something that happened a while back, like reminds me of how important this is, and that is a couple of people I know who are teachers were in Facebook groups that they thought were private but were actually public, and they had posted about their, like, job security.

One person had posted that they failed to pass a test that they needed to pass in order to keep their teaching job, and it landed on my feed, and I’m not a teacher, I actually was a parent at the school, right, but because there’s no secrets online, it landed on my feed. The first thing I did was take a screenshot of it, share it with the teacher, and say, I don’t think you realize that this is public, and it showed up on my feed, and you should probably take that down, and they were like, oh my gosh, and they were so embarrassed, and the other person had posted about being miserable at their job and wanting to know the best school districts to work for in a certain other area, and again, landed on my feed. I’m like, if it landed on my feed, who else’s feed does it land on that you may know that has seen you post this? And so those are examples of how people thought they were posting something online privately, but it turned out to be very public, and all you have to do is see that happen to somebody else once to feel like, oh, I can’t ever risk putting this in writing in a online space again, and so if you serve a population like that, know that you just have to get really creative with how you serve them and the doors that you open for them to walk through to get your help, and you know, one of the things that we see in a lot of these professions, right, I already said, it’s a high burnout profession, all of these are, and unfortunately, when you google burnout, in many cases, what you get are productivity hacks, right, how to do more in less time, how to be more efficient, how to be bigger and better than you are, and really what you need is not help managing your inbox or another productivity system, you need the ability to manage yourself, and you need clarity on what is your job, and what is not your job, right, because productivity is always about how to fit more into your day, but what Margaret’s book is all about, what Margaret really does, you know, preach, pun intended, is the importance not of being more productive or managing time better, but it is how to have, assert, and maintain appropriate boundaries, because productivity, again, is a question of how to fit more in your day, boundaries, on the other hand, are a question of what is actually yours to carry, and what is somebody else’s, right, and there’s such different questions, because if you just stop carrying everybody else’s baggage, suddenly your load gets a whole lot lighter, and you don’t need to pack more into your day, but I would say ministry in particular, you know, since that’s really what we’re talking about on the heels of my interview with Margaret, you know, ministry specifically doesn’t just have a burnout problem, right, it has an expectation problem.

Many of us who are people of faith unconsciously expect pastors to somehow be the earth-bound incarnation of the Messiah, right, we expect them to walk on water, we expect them to represent unconditional availability, right, somebody dies, we expect the pastor to race over. If a marriage is falling apart, we expect the pastor to immediately have an emergency counseling session with us. If we or our loved ones in the hospital, we expect a hospital visit.

If there is conflict, right, we call our pastor for counsel. If we’re not sure what to do in the political climate and how the political climate intersects with our faith or with the religious climate, we call our pastor. You know, I used to be part of a faith community where people did ask the pastor how they should vote, because they didn’t trust their own, like, their own awareness and knowledge of the issues, and it’s totally understandable, right, like, who doesn’t want a friend? I mean, seriously, there are so many things, like, in life and, like, especially as a parent that has been like, it’d be great to just pick up the phone and be like, tell me what to do.

Tell me what to do so I don’t have to think for myself. It’s totally understandable, but it is impossible for any one person to meet 100 percent of somebody else’s needs, much less several somebodies in the case of a congregation. And, you know, so Margaret talks a lot about the importance of deciding with extreme clarity what you, as an individual, are actually called to carry.

And again, this applies beyond ministry, but determining what are you actually called to carry and what belongs to somebody else. And carrying only your own stuff is not a selfish act. It’s the key to sustainability, right? The only way you can ensure you will be here tomorrow and the next day and the day after that is to not overwhelm yourself with stuff that isn’t yours.

Emotional baggage, spiritual baggage, financial baggage, whatever that could be. So I think the practical lesson for all of us to take from my conversation with Margaret, but even from Margaret’s book, even if you never buy Margaret’s book, although I think if you know anybody in ministry leadership, you should Margaret’s book for them, is that, you know, boundaries do not weaken communities. They strengthen them.

Margaret had spoken about taking a sabbatical and that when she came back from that sabbatical, somebody who had been left in a position of leadership while she was gone thanked her. And they didn’t thank her because, like, oh my gosh, we’re so glad you left so that we could just slack off in your absence and nobody was here to tell us what to do. They thanked her because in her absence, the congregation had learned what they were capable of doing, right? Without her there to ask every little question, they figured out how to act for themselves, think for themselves, and how to create a healthy structure for themselves.

And this is something that I have had to struggle with for years. You know, I am that person who was like, yeah, I’ll do it. I mean, you know, I could do that.

And it was in my late 20s that I realized that my speed of volunteering for things that I could do frequently prevented the person who was actually best, like best suited for doing the thing from stepping up. Because if Tanya is going to do everything, then why should I even bother? And learning to say no to opportunities, especially if there was no clear second choice, has been one of the hardest challenges of my adulthood. But on one hand, we teach, you know, we teach helplessness.

You know, our willingness to carry everything for everybody else teaches them that they don’t have to carry anything. But I think more important and even more damaging than that is sending the message that we don’t believe anybody is as capable as us. And you know, we see this as parents, like a lot of parents don’t want to teach their kids to cook because they’re going to mess up the kitchen, it’s going to make more work in cleaning.

But if you don’t let the kids at a young age, learn to cook, learn to clean up after themselves, if you’re not willing to tolerate those messes, you’re going to end up still cooking for them in their 20s. So if you want them cooking for you when they’re in their 20s, you’ve got to let them start cooking for you when they’re 12 and 13. And yeah, they’re slower.

You know, same thing with, you know, teaching kids to clean house, teaching kids to mop the floor, the floors do not look great for the first few years, but they’re never going to look great if they don’t learn at some point. Right? So that idea that our willingness to carry everything unintentionally teaches others that they don’t have to do it, or that they just automatically aren’t cut out to do it. That is true in churches, it’s true in businesses, it’s true in families, it’s true in volunteer organizations.

And I think the core truth here is that often over functioning creates a dynamic of under functioning in those around us. And it’s not because those around us are lazy. I think that’s what a lot of us interpret was like, well, if they just worked harder, if they just if they weren’t so lazy, they would see that I’m overburdened, and they would jump in and help.

No, it’s that systems adapt. Right? And so if there is a gear in the system that naturally absorbs all the extra weight, why would any of the other gears balance the weight out? Right? We all do what we need to do. And so if somebody else always takes care of it, then we don’t need to I think of when I worked in an environment where, you know, I think every team has a person who’s like hyper positive, hyper optimistic, and then they have the person who’s like the naysayer, right? They’re like ultra pessimistic.

And we were going into this meeting, we were supposed to talk like through kind of like the pros and cons of a big departmental decision. And so I had asked my supervisor, and I said, so you know, like, what are you thinking about when we go in there? Like, what are the easy pros and cons? And so they stated some pros. And I said, Well, what about the downsides? And they’re like, oh, I didn’t bother thinking of any downsides.

And I was like, I like you’re my boss. Like, I mean, you should like I’ve thought of some downsides, like you should be thinking of some downsides. And his response was, well, like, so and so, like, I can always count on them to think of the downsides, I don’t need to bother.

And it’s like, oh, you know, and of course, so and so was, you know, who he viewed as the office pessimist. Like, why should I have to think about worst case scenarios, if I’ve got this other person to think about worst case scenarios. And it might sound like a silly example.

But think about it, if they’re the only person who’s thinking about worst case scenarios, then your disaster planning is only as good as their imagination. But that’s how the system had adapted, right? Like nobody thought it was their responsibility to think of how things could go sideways, because they all expected this other person to be thinking through that. So let’s talk about what this means for all of us means for you means for me, right? Because you don’t have to be a pastor for this to matter, I want you to think about the people in your life who are always the strong one.

And maybe that’s you, right? Maybe you’re the kid your parents go to for everything, because they know you can handle it. And your sisters or siblings go to you for everything, because they think they can handle it. You know, maybe you’re the friend that everybody calls when they need something.

Maybe you’re the teacher who like never says no to the extension. So you know, students always come to you, if there’s a conflict with deadlines, so that you’ll move their deadlines rather than asking the other teachers to move their deadlines. Maybe you’re the manager who steps in to solve every crisis, no matter if it’s a night, a weekend, or a holiday.

Maybe you’re the unpaid unofficial therapist, or you know, the nonprofit director who does everything that a board should do, instead of the actual board doing the things. Maybe you’re a caregiver, or a parent, or a community leader. Regardless, ask yourself, do I only notice these people when I need something? Am I feeling like I only get noticed when the people around me need something, if you fit into any of those? And as you think about these individuals in your life, you know, ask yourself, do you take time to create space for them to simply be human? Do you give your pastor permission to be human? Do you give your manager permission to be human? Do you let your teacher know, when you ask for something, it’s okay to say no, like I’m a big kid, I can handle this myself.

Right? Do you treat your doctor like a human? Right? Because our communities, whether they’re virtual, or they’re in person, you know, they don’t become healthier by asking one person to carry the sacrifice for everybody. They become healthier when we start sharing responsibility. Now, every episode of Find Your Freaks asks you to think differently about belonging.

You know, we’re like hitting what, 33 episodes now? If you haven’t figured that out yet, that’s what we do here. Every episode, I’m asking you to think differently about belonging. And what Margaret’s episode reminded me, and I hope it introduced you to the reality that belonging isn’t free.

Someone is almost always doing some measure of invisible labor that makes belonging possible. And the healthiest communities, again, they’re not built on these extraordinary super human individuals who never get tired, who are little Energizer bunnies. They’re built on ordinary people who know their limits and have the confidence to trust other people to carry their portion of the load.

And who understand that the ability to do the thing today and tomorrow and for the next 20 years is far more valuable than running full steam ahead on no sleep and a whole lot of caffeine for one or two years. So the question I’d love to put to you this week is not whether you’re predictive, or let me try that again. So the question I’d like to put forth to you this week is not whether you’re productive enough.

My question for you is what are you carrying that never was yours to carry to begin with? And once you have that answer, remember that Margaret said, right, sustainable leadership doesn’t begin with better time management. It begins with the courage to decide what your call actually is, and even more importantly, what it is not. And if what you’re carrying isn’t yours, now would be a great time to put it down, step aside, and see how that feels.

That’s it for this episode of Find Your Freaks. To help more weirdos find their way here, subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And if you’re craving connection, join the freak show at findyourfreaks.com. What makes you weird makes you wonderful.

Normal was never the point.